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flikx

University of Utah

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Also by Krow

Student Opinion Survey Censored -- For Good

posted by Krow on 07:06 PM May 29th, 2001   Printer-friendly   Email story
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flikx writes "This is sort of the opposite of a YASS announcement. As some people here may well know, I created a slash site last October for the University of Utah. This site was under student government, but my 'silly' no-censorship policies more than crawled under the skin of those in the university administration -- it infuriated them. Pure politics brought the site down -- abuse was extremely minimal, especially by slashdot standards, but there was enough to get me in a lot of trouble.

So sad to say it, SOS is no more, and 2000+ volunteer hours have gone straight down the toilet. I'm very sorry, but I wish to share this as an example of the fact that american universities cannot even handle free speech, let alone promote it.

For those interested, the site had been up since October 12th 2000, had about 800,000 hits, 208 user accounts, and a running average of 200 unique hits per day.

Thank you so much for slash code to all of those involved.. I look forward to starting another slash site at some point in the future.

/Dan Flickinger (aka flikx)"
Just move it elsewhere.
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Student Opinion Survey Censored -- For Good 25 Comments More | Login /

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  • Krow, though your intentions are good and your solution is logical, I would like to make clear that it is not an option. I do so while trying to remain as polite as possible, so please bear with me.

    I am in much worse of a predicament now because of making plans to move the site. Because of this, the administration had the police remove the server from the premisis. The site and all backups were immediately destroyed. The site was forcefully disbanded. To prevent further solutions, the University legal team swiftly decided to make the call that everything is owned by the University. Everything. That includes every story, comment, user account, database, and even all of the graphic design I did. In other words, they'll press charges if I take the site elsewhere. I am smart enough to have offsite backups, but they don't do much good if I face further criminal charges if I use them.

    To add insult to injury, someone decided to forge an email from me threatening some scr1pt k1dd13 shit. Because of this, and my general 'bad attitude', I am now suspended from the university of utah. Even worse than that, is that I will be swiftly expelled very soon. So I have kissed my four years of engineering school goodbye. I'm almost a mechanical engineer, and by the time they're through I'll have nothing.. no transcripts, no opportunity to go elsewhere, nothing to prove that I did a damn thing with my life since I entered college at age 16. Even further, Utah has weak computer crime laws, and I've had repeated threats from the local police that they'll bring in the FBI to bury me on the script kiddie threats.



    Sorry about the bitching and moaning, but I hope that people on slashcode can see the situation I'm in. It's obviously not slash's fault, but take a look at what I did and learn from it. Slashcode is some very great stuff, and I don't say that to kiss ass.. it's very powerful, and one person can go a long way with it. You're a bunch of very talented coders, apache guys, database thugs, etc..

    It's politics, all politics. And it's a shame that an engineer with a shitty attidute and a slash site for the student government can cause so much damage to himself and to a university. I'd say something like 'let that be a lesson to ya' or somesuch, but I highly doubt that many of you who read this will ever or have ever put yourself in such a situation.

    As for slashcode, I'll be here. As long as I'm out of prison, I'll be right here. I contribute to other slash sites, and I'm not going away. Thought for concern of redundancy, I doubt that I'll ever found my own slash site ever again.



    In closing, I put myself up to questions, comments, flames, trolls or whatever...

    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
  • have you looked to outside legal help? a group like the ACLU might support you if everything is as bad as they say. I dont know how well off the university in question is but i do know that another [princeton.edu] university would rather settle out of court rather than trying a case which they have even a remote case of losing.
    --
    --DrewSpud
  • I am not American, but I believe it's time to see a good lawyer and find a way out: there's too much at stake. Yes, I too believe that calling in the ACLU would be a good idea, at least you should try to leave Univ. of Utah with a kick in the ass AND a degree.

    If everything ends up well for you, I will tell the joke that came to my mind...
    --

    Check out the Slash in Italian Project [kenobi.it]

  • I am sorry to hear that things have turned out so poorly for you. A couple of things though, did you work for the University? If you did the work on your own time and you do not work for the University then what you did is yours. I have seen Universities try to pull this before where they think they own code in these situations, but they do not.
    They can make a threat though. I would look for outside help BTW and I would put up another site. I would also raise the question about the suspension with the academic board of your school, typically they are more reasonable then any adminstrator.
    Good luck with your case.
    --

    --
    You can't grep a dead tree.
  • did you work for the University?

    I was not on the payroll nor an official employee of the University. I ran this project as an Associate Director under the Technology Board od ASUU (Student government). This was a purely volunteer position. All of my time on the project was my own, and the entire thing was my own creation. The legal team has somehow determined that everything one does for student government belongs to the school or somesuch. They even insulted me with the arguement about how nothing I do is mine, and how I have no respect for the U's intellectual property rights.

    outside help BTW

    Already working on that, especially considering the actions I'm facing. Though I welcome any and all suggestions.

    I would put up another site

    Maybe someday .. I don't think I'll ever create one under the wing of a University though. My justification was that the .utah.edu domain made it more official, plus gave me resources for advertisements, such as flyers, pens, and even t-shirts. In retrospect it was a stupid idea, and I most likely would have been more successful anyways had I operated the site as an independent venture.



    As for the suspension and impending expulsion, I'm working hard on defending my almost complete education .. but it's not easy. I want to be an engineer, and I chose engineering because I wanted to leave behind all of this CS and IT stuff .. though it seems that being a code monkey of some sort is going to end up being my calling in life.



    Thanks everyone for the support here .. every little bit helps.

    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.

  • I'm looking for outside legal help, and have a couple leads .. but I might really get the ACLU involved. I don't know how far it will go, but I have quite a case based on discrimination and a variety of other travesties. It's worth a shot if it can offer me some protection.

    As for the University in question [utah.edu] it is very touchy on lawsuits. There was a very big one last year when a super conservative LDS [mormon] student sued the theater dept. for forcing her to use profane language and failing to censor perfo

    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
  • Well, see my other two replies.

    I'd say that I want to come out winning a few things:

    • My engineering degree
    • Leaving the U of U for a 'better' school
    • and a joke. :)

    It will be a while before much more happens (aside from any more script kiddie threats being spoofed from me) .. and I'll report back when I have some more news. [hopefully good news].

    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.

  • Re:Just move it elsewhere (Score:0)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You need to contact the ACLU. Look them up in the phone book and give them a call. Explain everything from start to finish, see what they say.

    The IP argument is bogus. Completely and totally. Unless you were paid to create that site, there isn't even a shadow of a doubt that it belongs to you rather than the University. Even if you were paid, it may still belong to you. (Not to mention the assorted comments and such, which under U.S. law are copyrighted by the posters.) Although the University can probably legitimately stop you from using a utah.edu domain name and any other University resources for the site, they have no right to stop you from putting it up on your own nickel outside of the school.

    Always keep in mind that "the legal team" you are talking to are the UNIVERSITY'S legal team, and they are paid to lie in support of their client - that is their job. That's why you need legal counsel of your own, representing your interests.

  • Holy moly, flikx! I feel for ya. If worse comes to worst, I'm sure the slash community can find you several job openings. I really hope you get your degree instead, though.

    Call the ACLU [aclu.org], like others suggest. I don't like them, but they do have good lawyers. Call the ACLJ [aclj.org] too. You never know.

    --
    ⇒ Constitutionally Correct [cpne.org] ⇐
  • I'm still shocked by the fact that I have no right to keep my degree and all the work that has went into it. A university can brand you for life with an expulsion like this. My grades may be enough to make it to places like CIT, MIT, Berkley or whereever, but fat chance. "Hello, I was expelled from the University of Utah and I'm almost an engineer. Can I come to your school for a year just to get a piece of paper? Thanks.."

    As for the job situation, hopefully something will come through soon. Thanks to th
    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.

  • Re:Just move it elsewhere (Score:0)

    by Anonymous Coward
    DarkMoon here... I'm In SLC, I'm gonna give this tomorrow to our firms lawyer, see what he has to say about this.
    This sounds bogus, I cannot understand how they got the police to come to you and remove all your stuff. A year ago we had a disagreement with an employee who consequently did delete ALL work he did from our network for which he had received his pay, the police didn't do a damm thing, all they sayd was that if he didn't break into the network (which he didn't, he used his legit access codes) he didn't commit any crime and we were S.O.L., it ended up that he held his work hostage to get some bonus pay.
  • Hey, first off .. give me an email at the above address.

    Also, a little clarification: the police has not taken my stuff (yet). The university administration had the police remove the SOS server from the student government offices, and had campus network services destroy everything on the server; after logging everything they might 'think' is illegal. There was no illegal material on the server, other than comments the university deems as inappropriate. The university administration has found me liable personally for everything submitted as a comment or story on the site, and there are numerous violations of the student code. As for the server, they have every right (AFAIK) to take it, because the University Student Government owns the server in question, and it was operating off of university power and bandwidth. I have offsite backups still intact, but they said that they will pursue legal action if I deploy the site elsewhere. So at the moment, I'm holding onto an outlaw site.

    I'm getting together a lot of steam to fight this.. so everyone else stay tuned. This is far from over. I can still use all the help I can get.


    /flikx
    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
  • If you have contacted your state chapter of the ACLU and you think that is not going to result in timely action, I would consider calling your state legislative representatives, your Senators, and your Congressional representative. I would briefly explain the situation to a staff person, and I would follow up with a formal letter to each.

    I would ask them to request a written explanation from the university of any administrative action which affects your academic standing and/or your progress toward a degree.

    This type of inquiry is performed by elected representatives, and is often referred to as constituent service. It often makes people at very high levels in a bureaucracy sit up and take notice. I have used this technique to get a state department of labor and a major utility off my back. The incidents I am referring to were separate situations where these organizations started actions against me which were based on mistakes that they had made.

    On a separate note, I get the sense that you do not have personal legal counsel in this matter. If that is the case, you ought to find someone to represent you immediately. IMHO, an experienced lawyer would offer you better advice about engaging the ACLU and related issues than the readers of this site can (including me).

    --

    --

    Dave Aiello
    Chatham Township Data Corporation [ctdata.com]

  • I would ask them to bring in the FBI. They will laugh at the school administration and tell them never to bother them again, as no computer crimes were committed and don't they know anything about obscenity law? Then, when the admin goes to the local police, the FBI will tell them how bogus the whole thing is and they will tell any attorney general that there is no case. You did not access any systems illegallly. If the idiots at the school scrubbed the original system there isn't even a case if you did commit a crime (which you didn't). Since they destroyed all the evidence (and you should destroy those offsite backups) they can't bring you up on any charges to the academic review people anyway. Only they can expel you (in most accredited colleges, so check the rules) and no one can blank your transcript or refuse to make it unavailable. You need a real lawyer, not the ACLU. Just my humble opinion of course.

  • Re:Just move it elsewhere (Score:0)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Be sure to tell your lawyers (after being sure to get lawyers) that the university *destroyed* evidence.
  • IANAL but it seems to me that the descruction of evidence (the site and backups) renders a criminal prosecution impossible as they have robbed you of the right to present evidence (contextual) in your defense.

    As has been repeatedly said contact the ACLU for assistance - I know they took up the case (and won) of a Washington state student who was expelled from high school for creating a site that was critical of his teachers. (and he was directly responsible for the content)

  • As a parent... (Score:0)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm closer to sending my own kids to college than my undergrad days (yick!!!), and one thing you haven't mentioned is your parents/guardians. I don't know your folks, of course, but if someone tried to pull this crap with my kid I'd be all over them like white on rice. So unless you have a bad relationship with them, make sure they know what's going on.

  • Re:Just move it elsewhere (Score:0)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I give you all the good will and spiritual support I can muster. Don't know of anything else I can do to help. My opinions. As to the threat of the FBI. Agree... No... DEMAND they do so. Even the FBI isn't so incompetent that they can't spot a spoofed email. (It just might take a while.) That would clear you of all the "threatening letter" garbage. And if the local cops stop making those stupid threats, you'll save a few points of bloodpressure. (If They destroyed evidence, the FBI might get really ticked at them also...) As to the art you created. It's yours. Technically you owned the copywright the moment you created them. But the government likes the paperwork to prove it. So long as no one else did the copywright paperwork on them (which can be fought) they belong to the artist. I dimly remember seeing a news article about a case where someone charged the owner of a board about the "libelous" posts some users had said about him. The judge threw it out since the owner just owned the "location" but had no responsiblity (actual or implied) to prevent people from saying whatever they wanted. Then he suggested that the bozo pulling the lawsuits tried targeting the posters, if he could identify them... Sounds like the University is: Stupid (I doubt it.) Psychotic (Or at least the jerk pushing this) A Bully (Think they're the big dog in town...) All of the above Remember, Universities can get way too full of themselves over some things. They think they are the smartest and biggest around, have a stable of lawyers, have politicians as alumni, and can assign grunt-work research to their law students. Anybody want to prove my opinions wrong? You can't. Opinions are opinions. Facts, perceptions, and beliefs can be wrong, not opinions. Gambate!!!
  • I would post this information on other major sites. I don't think the ACLU will do much for you. You might want to talk to the Free Software Foundation. I know this is probably out of their area but they might be able to suggest someone. With the amount of lawyers in the U.S. I'm sure there are plenty willing to take this on. Sounds like a good opportunity for someone to make a name for themselves because the University sure doesn't have much of a case. I would see if the University will come to a res

  • How about the press? (Score:0)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Blah to AC, but I'm just a slashdot junkie that followed the link.

    If your university has a newspaper, you could see about contacting them. If the administration has that much control (paranoia?) over the student government, they might block it in the paper too. But if that doesn't work, give your local newspaper/TV station a call. Few reporters will pass up a story that has potential. Good Luck, Charles

  • Chances are very good, that you will keep your degree. Courts do not look favorably on universities abusing their power for intimidation purposes. The bad news is that you might have to fight them. It will be cheaper and easier in the long run to get legal counsel and fight, than lose your degree and start over.

    I'm sure your church leaders (I'm also LDS) do not want to ex you for something like this, even if they don't agree with your actions. My personal feeling is that you will need to make this a public battle. You should review the situation with legal council before you make any contact with the U of U administrative offices.

    Just be glad you don't attend BYU, you would be gone already (LOL).

    --
    Red Bull - the Austrian Mountain Dew

  • In case you didn't know.. I was cleared of all responsibility for the email. Not once have I ever blamed my wife, Mable for that email. I now know who sent the email, but I will not say it.. if said person wishes to come forward, that's fine.

    Why don't you own up to your shit, you asshole coward? I already know who you are, but you obviously take to hiding behind a thin veil to insult me.

    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
  • They know, and they have now basically dropped support. They see it as best not to get involved anymore.
    --
    One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
  • As for the ACLJ, I'll look at it in greater detail, but on the surface, it looks like it may be the same story. I'm best to leave religion out of it.

    I don't see what religion has to do with it. It's a matter of violation of your 1st Amendment rights being violated, plain and simple. The ACLJ may be backed by religious folks (just as the ACLU is backed by anti-religious folks) but they have a stake in protecting freedom of speech too. So I don't see what difference it makes.

    --
    ⇒ Constitutionally Correct [cpne.org] ⇐
  • 1. Don't fight about the web site. Keep a copy, send a copy to a friend in another state, preferably another country, and maybe put it back up later. Don't do anything to provoke them.
    2. I would not get a lawyer, yet. They have no criminal case, and even an appointed attorney can get this case dismissed.
    3. Fight against the expulsion. Do not let them expel you. If they do, then they have to have proof and reason to. At my school I can file a greivance and if that doesn't work, a lawsuit. It is nearly impossible to expel a student, especially from a public school. You have both 1st and 5th amendment rights, and your wife has 5th amendment rights and doesn't have to incriminate you. I would not want to transfer to another school.
    4. Win case about expulsion -- Back in school. :)
    5. File a grievance about both you and your wife's termination from jobs, as separate cases. Even if you lose, your wife should not. If it is a pay job, demand back pay. They have to prove that they should have fired you both. Make sure greivance/lawsuit is filed within the rules/statute of limitations.
    6. Look for a new job for both of you.
    7. Graduate.
    8. Leave the UofU area.
    --
    Roastmules